France's Last Empress with Petie Kladstrup & Evelyne Resnick

Today’s special episode is an interview with Petie Kladstrup and Evelyne Resnick.

Kladstrup, with her husband Don, is the author of three previous books about the history of France through the prism of wine:  Wine & War: the French, the Nazis and the Battle for France's Greatest Treasure, Champagne:  How the World's Most Glamorous Wine Triumphed over War and Hard Times and Champagne Charlie:  the Frenchman Who Taught Americans to Love Champagne.  In addition, Petie is author of a family memoir: In the Presence of Forever: the Story of the White Dove, and the editor of a guide for overseas-educated students preparing to attend American universities.  She is also the author of a soon-to-be-published children's story drawn from the life of Empress Eugénie: Reine, the Turtle Who Guarded the Pyramids. She is the recipient of an Overseas Press Club of America Award for international reporting, was a reporter for midwestern newspapers and also served as assistant to the U.S. ambassador to UNESCO. 

French born and educated, Evelyne Resnick holds a Ph.D in cultural studies from the Sorbonne in Paris, France. She shared her time and career between teaching at UCLA and various universities in Europe, managing an international communications agency in Paris and writing books and articles in French and in English. Her favorite ones are her biography of Leonard Bernstein, her book on wine history and business and her most recent book with her co-author on Empress Eugénie. Several of her books received awards and were translated in different languages.

Today we are discussing their new book The Last Empress of France: The Rebellious Life of Eugénie de Montijo.

Thank you so much for being on the show Petie Kladstrup and Evelyne Resnick.  The book The Last Empress of France: the Rebellious Life of Eugenie de Montijo is a fantastic work.

Now, let's talk about this character. Eugenie de Montijo has quite the pedigree as a Spanish noblewoman Can you tell us a bit about her backstory and how she went from being a Spanish aristocrat to a French empress?

Petie:

The short answer to how she went from being a Spanish aristocrat to a French empress is lust. Napoleon III saw her, thought she was fantastic, and really, really wanted her. She e]was a very very international woman.  Her background, her family was although considered Spanish, her mother was half Belgian.  Her grandfather was a Scot.  In fact, he was also the U.S. consul in Spain for a long time.  So the family that she came from was used to a very cross-cultural environment.  They spoke several languages, of course Spanish, but French was a very current language as well for them.  At a very young age The went to France for boarding school for a while, both Eugenie and her sister Paca.  From the time she was a little child, she was used to moving in international circles.  She was used to meeting people who had similar backgrounds.  She was used to mixing with the friends of her family who were, as I said a very international set of people.  And it was through this and her various acquaintances that we was present at the French court and became very well known there.  Made lots of friends there, and came to the attention of the man who was about to become emperor of France, Napoleon III.  In was at that point that he became interested in her and really, really wanted to marry her, but faced all kinds of resistance, both from his family, who felt he should be looking for a royal princess, from his colleagues who felt she was definitely beneath him, for all kinds of people, and in fact for the Spaniards who felt she was marrying beneath herself because she was such an aristocrat in Spain, with a grandee of Spain with so many titles of her own that it was a wast of her to marry herself to, what should I say, nouveau arriviste as emperor.  But Napoleon was quite determined and as a result was able to finagle it so that he could marry her.

Gary:

As a woman in the 19th century, Eugenie was expected not to have a major role in politics. How did she exert influence in the political arena, and what were the effects of her actions?

Petie:

I think that her role increased a lot after the birth of the imperialial Prince Prince.

She was suddenly the mother to the heir to this dynasty of Bonaparte. People, and especially her husband, started looking at her as a more important figure in the court and in the political scene.

She also had, Piti pointed our that she had this international background.

So she had an in-depth knowledge about Spanish politics. A mother was a lady in waiting at the Spanish court for many years. Through the marriage of her sister to the Duke of Alba, she was in touch with all the aristocracy of the country.

She was also very knowledgeable about the history of the Bonapartes. Her father fought along the French during ah the reign of Joseph as King of Spain.

So little by little, her influence at the court grew, and Napoleon figured out rather fast that she was his best ally.

And in spite of the fact that in those years, we're talking about some 1860s, women really didn't have any power, any rights. Because of very special qualities, she really was able to exert some influence on Napoleon, but also on ah French politics.

Gary:

Now, notably, Eugenie was a regent on several occasions. How much power did she exercise, and how did she rule during these times?

Petie:

Most of her actions went through the Council of Ministers. When she was regent, she had to sit with all the ministers.

So at first, a gentlemen can kind of resent the fact that she attended the council and was part of the decisions.

But little by little, because she worked really, really hard to understand French and international politics, she gained their respect. and And she made some friends amongst ministers. She had her own circle of advisors and she even convinced some of them to second her

in some of her actions. One of the most famous examples is Émile Olivier, who was a Republican, and he became a Minister of Education for Napoleon.

And Eugénie convinced him to um how but her in reforming women's education, open schools to girls all over France.

And that's how she became really a force in the government. It's by making allies and being, I wouldn't say a diplomat, because she was known for being sometimes little too abrupt.  But she knew how to bring people into her own circle of advisors.

And in addition, at the time, the British newspapers had many correspondents in Paris and they covered the council meetings, the the council meetings that Evelyn was talking about with  the other ministers of the country.

And they began reporting on how she handled the meetings. They reported very favorably on on her ability to control the meetings, on her ability to reason with the ministers. And at the same time, continue what they considered woman's work, the charity projects that she developed. So as she was working with these people to develop allies, to develop programs, she was also bringing more and more attention to herself and with it, the public.

So that the public began to appreciate her, to become interested in her. And among those who appreciated her the most was her husband, who really understood that in this woman, he had somebody who was, as Evelyn said, his a really important ally.

Gary:

Your book goes into detail about Eugenie's importance to the fashion world. How did she leave her mark on Paris, France, and Europe through the decorative arts and fashion?

Petie:  It was perhaps a a natural thing to say, what is the empress wearing today? Just as in America today, we still look at what a woman, a female politician is wearing to any event.

Then it was a really important thing.  Eugenie quickly realized how important it was. And when she saw a gown worn by the Princess Metternich and realized that it was a very special creation, that it looked extraordinary, she understood that she could take advantage of that to call more attention to herself and through that, her programs, her programs of advancement for women.

And this was an industry that employed women, seamstresses, embroiderers, people who worked with fabric of all kinds, cutting and developing patterns, etc., and that it meant jobs.

It also meant income for the country. And it was through this that France became the leading country in the world in fashion, position it's it's retained for now what, 150 years since her death, or since her as she began working in it.

And it expanded extensively so that it was one of the major employers in Paris. And those employees were by and large women, women who could not get jobs in other industries, who were banned from other industries, who were not even allowed to own their own property at that time.

And here she gave them an opportunity.  She recognized as well that it was her presence that could sell these things. So she made a point of wearing things that people could identify and want to copy it at the same time as the press is developing the idea of fashion as something they could cover by say having special magazines or magazines with patterns in them, paper patterns. Women could cut those patterns out and make their own dresses.

It became massive industry,  say in Lyon, where the silk industry was based and where Frederick Wirth was doing so much work.  And she used him as her favorite designer so that essentially the moment she started wearing Wirth dresses and publicizing the fact who had made her dress, she created haute couture industry that we know today and which exists and

It exists ah particularly this moment in a fabulous exhibit of Wirth Clothes in Paris. So it was something that really made France stand out. But you know what the kind of dresses they were wearing, those big wide skirts, crinolines, et cetera.

You need the right kind of chair to sit in with them. Your skirts don't fit into a small narrow chair. So Eugenie was big on creating comfort, ability to sit. She pushed to have the furniture made in larger, more comfortable, more of cushioning, more upholstery so that, well, you could sit for a while at a concert or at other cultural events too.

And your dress dress wouldn't get crushed.

Gary:

What a industrious woman she was. Now you have mentioned ah parts of this earlier but let's really go into detail how did Eugenie work to better the position of women and girls in the empire.

Petie:

Well, I think what Evelyn said about women's education is absolutely the key. The fact that until she became Empress, there was no real education available to a female.

It's extraordinary. And that she managed with working, creating the allies, creating alliances with different parts of the government, with different factions, also with the church, which was very powerful in terms of religion in France, or powerful in terms of education in France

that she managed to somehow force it through so that women could actually go to school, not just for elementary school, but then go on to earn advanced degrees and become something other than you know a governess or a seamstress if they wanted to.

I think that's the most important thing that she accomplished for women, but she was very, very involved in making sure there were jobs available to women. When her husband created the postal service that we have in France today, she insisted that some of those jobs had to go to women.

Gary:

Your book talks about how Eugenie was often at the center of major political events in the Second Empire's history. What role did Empress Eugenie have in important French political events such as the invasion of Mexico, the opening of the Suez Canal, the Franco-Prussian War, and perhaps any other significant episodes?

Evelyne:

Well, let's start, for example, with the opening of the Suez Canal, because she was really instrumental in this event.

Her cousin, Ferdinand de Lesseps, was the engineer in charge of creating the canal. And so yeah now and ah Here we are talking about, say, 1850s, 1860s.

It was a dream of the Bonapartes to join various parts of the world through a canal to help the traffic between continents.

Eugénie was asked by her husband to represent France and the Second Empire at's the opening of the canal.

We are in 1869. In a little more than a year, the Second Empire is going to collapse. But this event is certainly the crown of a career as an international political woman.

Even before she reached Egypt, she had various missions. She had to stop, for example, in Italy meet to meat Victor Emmanuel,  the Italian king, who by the way, is not a very pleasant man.

So the discussion was short and apparently ah went  rather poorly if we listen to Eugénie's version and very well if we believe the king.

Then she stopped in Turkey. Why? Because in fact the ruler of Egypt was under the authority of the ruler of Turkey.

And then there was a third party, Russia. Russia really wanted to dominate the area, all this area with Turkey and Egypt. So Eugénie was in charge of talking to the Turkish leader, spent some time with him and convinced him that France was a better ally than Russia.

And she did the job. So when she moved down Egypt, she was able to invite and meet all the rulers of Europe show the power of France.

Even the Russian ambassador was chastised and came to the event more as, let's not say a friend, but at least as a neutral power.

So she really had a very important role.  Obviously, the Egyptian adventure was really the top of her role as a politician. She was getting middle-aged, she had more experience, she knew everybody, which meant that she was able to play fully a role as Empress Consort.

Petie:

I think that, as Evelyn said, this was really the crowning moment when she was in Egypt for the opening of the canal. And it becomes even more clear when so quickly thereafter things turn bad.

But prior to that as well, there had been such a an awful event, the Mexican incursion. the Mexican invasion that I suppose it made the canal success even more glittering and glamorous than it had been because Mexico was in many ways the low point of her reign before the fall of the empire.

And I think both she and Napoleon regretted it tremendously and realized they got into something they didn't know anything about or didn't know enough about when they decided to send troops to Mexico and try and establish an empire under Maximilian there.

It was... I would guess almost in the moment that Maximilian got on that ship to leave that they realized this was a terrible mistake and tried very hard to backpedal.

But Maximilian, of course, was very happy to be an emperor and the he was not about to give up easily. So the things just deteriorated to an awful extent.

Resulting in the death of, the execution of Maximilian and the failure of the whole expedition to Mexico, which in many ways lead leads to the Franco-Prussian, the defeat in the Franco-Prussian War because the French military was so decimated by the Mexican invasion and by I guess, public opinion of adventuring into another war at that point. So for Eugenie particularly, it was a personal defeat there.

And she felt it tremendously. I think she felt a lot of guilt. ah She built a chapel and for expiation for herself,  prayed about it a great deal, said the worst thing that she would ever have to do is face the mother of one of the the young men who'd been killed in Mexico and try and explain what had happened.  Perhaps that was the, a side from her own personal losses of her son and her husband, the worst thing that had happened to her and something that she felt deeply about all her life.

Gary:

What a remarkable career she had, and now we come to the end. Following the overthrow of the Second Empire, Eugenie and her family lived in exile.

Can you detail her winter years?

Petie:

Well, maybe the first thing to think about is that for her, it wasn't, it was what, just late summer. She was still quite young.

Was she even 40? Well, she forty was born in 1826. She was in late forty’s Yeah, it was the beginning of the second half of her life. She hadn't even lived half her life at that point. It was quite extraordinary. And I mean, the fact that the way the war, Franco-Prussian War ended and she was run out of France and well, rescued by her American dentist, essentially, to escape from the mobs in Paris who it was just horrific.

And then to end up in this sort of sudden stop, in exile, it's hard to imagine how someone copes with going from being on the top of the world to being really, really at the bottom, just essentially overnight.

So in some ways, I think both Evelyn and I developed our greatest respect for her and how she managed to survive those last years of her life, which as I said, is more than half of her life and face like one sorrow after another that just wore her down and yet She was so amazingly resilient and never gave up on the things she really believed in. She worked for them.

She campaigned for them and every way she could in her,  as you said, winter years, which is a lovely phrase.

Gary:

The book claims that Eugenie is a very much overlooked and misunderstood figure by the public. What misconceptions remain about her, and how does your work aim to address these?

Evelyne:

Well, I think it's important to remember that among the along the French history, the Second Empire is not a very popular period of time.

It came after Napoleon erased the revolutions the 1848 revolution.

And then he married this beautiful foreign countess, not even a princess. And at that time, Eugénie was still considered fashion icon.

She was one of those in insignificant women because she wasn't from royal family. She was considered a bigot because she was Catholic.

And she went to church almost every day. So what we tried ah to to show is the true Eugénie.

In fact, she was a very hard working woman. She was very compassionate. She always thought about helping people who were in need, whether they were an artist who needed to produce a concert, like the British female composer Ethel Smith, or just little farmers girls who needed to go to an agricultural ah ah school in order to get some training and be something ah different.

What also was very interesting with her is that we realized that for her period of time and until the end of her life,

She kept an open mind. She loved everything that was new. She loved the innovation. She loved science.

She was one of the first supporters of Pasteur and all his research on hygiene. She was very tolerant of medicine many differences, you know, social but also religious. She was the one who claimed that Muslims, Jews and Christians all worshipped the same God and there was no reason to go at war over religious feelings.

Petie: 

In fact, she was a supporter of Dreyfus, felt France was had been shameful in its conduct towards him. it It was something that came through through all the the research and all we did that someone said she had no sensibilities, meaning all she was interested in was what a person was.

She could care less whether someone was gay or straight, whether as Evelyn said,  a Muslim or a Jew or a Christian.

These for her were things that had nothing to do with what what the person was about.  She believed in helping people, not in putting them in categories.

And this had been part of her since she was a little kid running off.  She couldn't come home with any pocket money because she'd given it to some beggar.

She couldn't come home with clean clothes because she was out helping somebody yeah with their work or and left her shawl for some little kid who was cold.

She was constantly looking at people as people and seeing where they needed help and how she could help them or how she could do something to make their lives better. And that was, I guess, the theme of her whole reign.

How can I make... life better. And ah she recognized it right from the beginning in her comment to her sister that, you know, if I'm going to be in this position, it must be so I can do something worthwhile.

And that was what she really tried to do throughout

Gary:

The book is The Last Empress of France, The Rebellious Life of Eugenie de Montijo. Thank you very much for being on the show.

Petie:

Thank you for having us. Thank you.